Thanks, kebod. I'd like to apologize for using the phrase "I don't buy the "toxins" argument". It is probably the case that the osmosis is working both ways. I just sympathize with Turquois and others who, though we will try oil pulling, have our issues with defining it.

I was thinking I should also clarify that _I_ don't think we need to have western research confirm whether something works for us. I just wouldn't fall over shocked if somebody in western science "discovers" what has been long known in traditional medicine, you know what I mean? Eastern medicine has been documented for how many thousands of years now? Western, a few hundred. We just want to be the lookout for snake-oil salesmen per se.

I found the earthclinic site to be influential to me also. Please share the sublingual links with the folks at skepticforum.com if you get a chance and are still posting there.

Angiel,
It sounds like you are there for your sister when she needs support. Tell her we are all here for her.

kebod

Bunnyday,

No apology needed. None of us can prove anything about oil pulling except for our individual experiences. I, too, think that OP works both ways, and that good nutrients are absorbed through mouth tissue. That's why it is so important to use the best quality oil we can.

No, we don't need Western research, except to silence the naysayers, like those on the Skeptics Forum. I think I am done posting on their forum. They wouldn't accept an alternative health link; they want FDA and pharmacuetical evidence. A few of them will pick apart in a rude manner anything they don't agree with. A few others are actutally interested in OP and are receptive to new ideas. I think I have nothing new to add to their forum, but I'm glad to see the debate continues.

Keep in touch with us.

kebod

My Update:

I haven't been around for a while but thought I would stop by. Unfortunately, I haven't been nearly as diligent with Oil Pulling as I'd like to be, but this has provided plenty of opportunity to observe its effects, and I have been doing it on and off for at least a couple months now. I figured I would share my thoughts and observations on it, because I have gotten some very distinct results, and am happy with it as part of my treatment.

Bottom line, somehow it moisturizes the skin, and somehow it contributes to exfoliation. It stops flaking and slows KP formation, especially if I do it a lot (2-3 times a day). It seems to be "the more the better," and can even cause symptoms of over-exfoliation (dampness/itching) if I do it too often (3-4 times a day, for a couple days in a row.)

I haven't noticed any other health effects yet, but it does drain my sinuses as soon as I start, and it affects my face, too. Sometimes it makes it more oily, other times flaky. It hasn't whitened my teeth at all, though. I can't say one way or the other on gum problems, because my gums were healthy to start with.

For its ability to treat KP.... I think if you did it a lot (2-3 times a day), it probably could treat a MILD case of KP over several months. I don't think it, alone, is enough to treat a more serious or even moderate case, but I find it very useful as an addition to other treatments. Its best effect seems to be in moisturizing; for me, it makes topical moisturizer obsolete.


On my skin, it takes effect (and loses effect) over several days - quite quickly. I think this is because my KP is treated and the pores and follicles are mostly open, so oil from the inside can distribute to the skin's surface pretty easily. I do think that the worse your KP is and the more clogged your skin is, the more difficult time you will have seeing results with OP.

How it works... This is still a mystery, but I think it has something to do with absorption through the mouth, or by ingestion of small amounts of the oil when it has reached a certain consistency and has interacted chemically with saliva. I do think the "toxin removal" theory is way off, and that nothing is actually removed during the process. It is an old treatment, and it's only natural that old superstition is going to accompany it.

I don't fast before or after I do it. I've had all my results with it, no matter what time of day, whether my stomach was empty or not. I don't think it matters.

I don't rinse afterward. I spit out most of it, but intentionally swallow a tiny bit, and then just let my mouth "sit" for a while. I don't believe the oil is toxic at that point, or that there is any harm in swallowing it. Actually I'm thinking about increasing the amount I ingest, just to see if I can increase the results I get, and maybe solve this mystery.


Overall, this is a very interesting treatment that has shown me obvious benefits. I will definitely keep doing it! As ridiculous as it seems, as impossible, it really does affect the skin.

Anyone hear anything bad or good about Cetaphil?

-Thanks Jewwules

Turquoise, thank you for your detailed account of oil pulling. Each one of us is different and reacts differently to OP. For me, only doing it once a day made a huge difference, removing 99% of bumps on my face, upper arms, upper side of hips and buttocks. I realize that for more severe cases, oil pulling may not be enough.

Everyone reading Turquoise' account: please don't swallow any of the oil when you finish, if you can help it. This is Turquoise' opinion that is does not contain toxins. We are all entitled to our own opinions on this, but the used oil has been examined under a microscope, and found to contain blood plasma. This means there was substance from the blood found in the oil. Blood carries impurities to be cleansed from our bodies. In this case, some of it is being pulled out by the oil. Why swallow impurities and put them back in our system? Here is the link that is the source of this information:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=756813#i

If you want to swallow some of the oil, do it when you first put it in your mouth. I do this with coconut oil, as it is so nutritious.

As far as it being accompanied by superstition, it is from a very well known health practice in India, Ayurvedic medicine. While we in the West tend to view anything different from another culture with suspicion, maybe even thinking it ridiculous, Ayurvidic medicine is the primary health care for thousands of people in India. Ayurvedic doctors refer to ancient documents detailing medical procedures for different ailments with great success.

Oil pulling is also practiced in Ukraine. A report on it has been presented to a medical association of oncologists and bacteriologists.
This information is from:
http://www.oilpulling.com/

Many who participate on the oil pulling forum put one or two drops of oregano oil in their pulling oil. Oregano oil is known for its ability to kill germs, bacteria and parasites. Google oregano oil if you want to learn more about it.

When you are finished with pulling, it is recommended to spit, brush your teeth and rinse with warm salt water. This is to remove any residual toxins.

To review the recommended procedure for oil pulling, please read:
http://curezone.com/forums/description.asp?f=738

kebod

I can't use Cetaphil cleansers. I haven't tried the moisturizers. I have found for my KP, which is moderate to bad, that the simpler the ingredients the better: just vegetable oils or simple mixtures with no petroleum and _definitely_ no parabens. I generally use no cleansers on my arms or legs, just scrubbing with water. If I really have to scrub out some garden mud or car grease I use a simple glycerin based soap. (my husband won't use anything but Dr. Bronner's hemp oil soap. He doesn't have KP and he's a skeptic of traditional AND modern medicine.)

parabens are classified as "hormonally active" and "skin and toxicity hazards: suspected"
http://www.ewg.org/reports/skindeep2...ENT&id=1010356

(Sorry, I've been having problems with connecting to this site today and I accidentally created a duplicate post.)

If it was already in the bloodstream, it can't possibly be harmful to swallow it. Actually, swallowing is one of the safer ways to handle things. You know, you can even swallow HIV infected blood and not be harmed by it? As long as you don't have an open injury to your upper GI tract, it does not have a portal to get into the bloodstream, and stomach acid destroys it. The same goes for many types of venom (this is why some religious practices include drinking snake venom) - it is harmless unless it is introduced to the bloodstream.

There is no evidence that proves that the oil "pulls" anything out of the body. To say so as fact is total misinformation.

How do we know that substances from the blood are not present in the mouth all the time? Many adults can have tiny amounts of blood cells in their mouths constantly due to gum disease (periodontal disease is rampant, and often asymptomatic for years. 95% of US adults don't floss regularly - almost no one has healthy gums. Basically, unless you floss every day (I do), you're probably in the early stages of gingivitis) or any number of causes. Anytime you bite your tongue or the inside of your mouth or have a cold sore, you create an open portal to a blood supply. Coughing, how about a smoker with irritation to the throat? Even simple agitation of the teeth and gums by brushing and flossing can cause small amounts of bleeding that are imperceptible. As that post says, cells in the mouth are easy sloughed with agitation, and there is constant repair and replacement of them that requires blood supply to every cell in the mouth. The physical effect of swishing anything in the mouth could cause it.


Besides that, this is ONE person, who did a test from her own mouth. That is not sufficient to generalize to everyone. Even if she found "toxins" (Huh? I don't see anything there that is a "toxin" or would be "bad" for you), she cannot represent a sample for other people.



"Toxins" is a superstitious and totally unscientific term. If someone can define "toxin" as a specific substance and prove that it is not naturally present in the mouth or in the oil, but appears in the oil after swishing, THEN it can be considered true. (Actually, I would be real impressed if someone can even tell me what a "toxin" is, in any terms that are specific.)

It is completely hypothetical at this point, no more or less likely than what I or others have proposed toward how this process works.

What is an "impurity" ? How do you know that the enzymes in saliva don't have some useful interaction with the oil that actually results in a beneficial substance? No one does. It's a theory as potentially valid as any other.


EDIT: Oil swishing itself causes irritation to the throat. It can give you a pretty intense sore throat if you do it even a few times a day. That means it is irritating the lining and producing inflammation and even removing some cell layers. That can easily cause substances from the blood to enter the mouth. It makes sense that it does this on a small scale every time you do it, even if you can't feel the soreness.

Hi,

I'm on my eighth day of oil pulling, and I'm doing it along with a colon cleanse. I have had SEVERE KP for about fifteen years now, from my shoulders to my ankles, along with extremely dry skin. I had noticed a couple of days ago that my KP bumps seemed to be flaking off, but I didn't want to get my hopes up, because up until now nothing has helped. But then this morning, my skin is significantly softer, smoother, and less dry! I haven't found any new bumps or ingrown hairs.

The only drawback so far is that I've had mild heartburn since I started, but I've had to take migraine medicine this week, and I feel like that's part of the reason.

So far, so good--I'm very happy to see an improvement in my skin, and remain cautiously hopeful.

Jamie

Turquoise,

Nor is there evidence to say that oil pulling doesn't pull toxins from the body. I gave sources for my statements. I did not present them as my personal opinions. You cite no sources for your opinions. We can both throw opinions around all day and accomplish nothing.

We don't have scientific evidence to show how this works. We just know that it does, and that it has benefited many, many people, both on this forum and on the oil pulling forum. Neither the FDA nor the pharmaceutical companies have investigated oil pulling to my knowledge. The big pharms are after big bucks. Cheap food-grade oil is not going to make any money for them, so they have no motive to research it.

I may not agree with your method of treating KP that you speak of on the forum you started, but I am not going to go to that forum and post anything negative about it, nor argue on that forum about its fine points. I respect the fact that you have found something that works for you and do not want to criticize it on your forum.

This forum is not meant to be a place where we argue about oil pulling. It is meant as an exchange of information for those who support it. This forum is about support.

kebod

You dismissed my comments as "opinion" and then specifically told everyone else what to do based on your opinion, which you presented as true.

That is a direct statement, " IT IS, " as though that is fact, when it isn't. You didn't even suggest that it could just be another viewpoint, and you used it to try to discredit what I had to say. That is not right, and it is misleading to tell people exactly what "is" happening with this method, when no one knows for sure.

Neither is fact or true, or should be the basis for telling others what to do or what not to. People should make their own evaluations and decisions, not be told what to do.

jsdist,

Good to hear from you again. It's good you're doing a colon cleanse, because the different cleansing methods make each more effective.
Please post again to let us know if there is any improvement with the KP.

kebod

T - I truly don't mean anything personal by this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/toxin

"Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Main Entry: tox·in
Pronunciation: 'täk-s&n
Function: noun
: a colloidal proteinaceous poisonous substance that is a specific product of the metabolic activities of a living organism and is usually very unstable, notably toxic when introduced into the tissues, and typically capable of inducing antibody formation —see ANTITOXIN, ENDOTOXIN, EXOTOXIN

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc."

It make me laugh NOT because I'm thinking "oh, haha this shows Turquois." - Far from it. I just wish it meant I could actually spew toxins at evildoers. Joking aside, I _laud_ your AHA thread and have been working on a gi-normous (not a real word) post for that thread because you've done such phenomenal methodic work documenting your progress.

I'm horribly curious because this oil pulling is only three days for me and it is doing some wild and wacky good stuff and it freaks me out just _because_ it seems so understudied, but where would someone begin?

Everybody else, this does not mean that Turquois's statements are not valid. They are quite valid and they should be taken into consideration probably _especially_ when you are trying to tell skeptics about this amazing but simple process. I also would like to see more specific test results but mostly out of curiosity. I enjoy reading Scientifiic American and Science News for many reasons and one of them is that science is as often as not validating that traditional remedies can be backed up with data.

I had no problem with it until she publicly denounced my ideas as "opinion" and then told everyone not to do what I was doing, and instead follow HER viewpoint. She didn't say that her ideas were also just opinion, and that people should make their own evaluation.

Obviously that is not being open to different ideas or being "supportive" or giving everyone's viewpoint equal weight.

Re: Toxins: It is a useful definition, but not relevant to this treatment. Plasma is not a "toxin," and the only thing that was proven by that person's experiment was that there was plasma in her mouth for some reason. This is not a basis for telling the world that "some of it (impurity) is being pulled out by the oil."

It is certainly not evidence that everyone should believe that and do exactly what she says, and not even listen to others' theories on how the process works.
Also, As that post showed, the oil itself contained plenty of foreign bacteria and even bacterial eggs. Why would you put that in your mouth, if the goal is to *remove* impurities? It's impossible not to ingest or absorb some of those things while you're doing it.

And none of this even touches the real issue, which is that there is a TON of direct evidence that KP is a genetic disease, and that it is aggravated by certain environmental and other conditions.
There is no evidence that it is caused by toxins in the blood, so insisting that toxin removal is "curing" it, is moot at this point. There may be no direct evidence that it is not doing that, but the idea itself is in conflict with what we do know as fact, that KP usually has a genetic component and responds most obviously to *external* changes, not internal.

I am open minded enough that I was willing to try oil swishing, and I find that it is effective to some degree. But it will never be publicly accepted if its focus is on "toxin removal," instead of theory that agrees with what evidence we have about KP and about how the human body works. It slides under this blanket of "folk medicine" and that new-age staple, evil but unproven "toxins" and that is why the scientific community has never taken it seriously.

If we really believe in this method, it would be best to give it every chance for acceptance. That is not going to start by trampling logical theories in favor of mystic and unprovable ones.

Too, if swallowing it is so horrible and counterproductive, why I am getting great results with it? (Better than a lot of what I've read here, actually.)